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Keith
Guest
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 Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: Insure vs Ensure |
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A funny thing happened on the way to the toastmasters newsgroup... Just
when I though I had discovered an error on Toastmaster's web site, I find
I'm wrong.
I was reviewing the mission for districts at http://www.toastmasters.org
under the Vision / Mission link. The second point under the mission
statement for districts begins with "Insure" in the context "to make
certain". I looked up insure on www.dictionary.com and, lo and behold, the
2nd definition denotes "to make sure or certain". When I was in school, I
was taught that "ensure" would have been the proper choice for that context.
A few months ago when I was grammarian / ah counter, I dinged someone for
ending a lot of sentences with a preposition. Then I got dinged by the
general evaluator, who said that it's ok to do that now. Others - some
writers - agreed with her. GEE! Why did they change the rules on me after
I graduated high school - and didn't tell me!?! <grin>
Has anyone had similar situations - learning for so many years the
peculiarities of grammar, vocabulary, etc., then discover that the rules
have changed?
Keith |
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Joy
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Insure vs Ensure |
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"Keith" <pqleer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:453fd$44d7bfad$d8c35b0a$10997@FUSE.NET...
| Quote: | A funny thing happened on the way to the toastmasters newsgroup... Just
when I though I had discovered an error on Toastmaster's web site, I find
I'm wrong.
I was reviewing the mission for districts at http://www.toastmasters.org
under the Vision / Mission link. The second point under the mission
statement for districts begins with "Insure" in the context "to make
certain". I looked up insure on www.dictionary.com and, lo and behold,
the 2nd definition denotes "to make sure or certain". When I was in
school, I was taught that "ensure" would have been the proper choice for
that context.
A few months ago when I was grammarian / ah counter, I dinged someone for
ending a lot of sentences with a preposition. Then I got dinged by the
general evaluator, who said that it's ok to do that now. Others - some
writers - agreed with her. GEE! Why did they change the rules on me
after I graduated high school - and didn't tell me!?! <grin
Has anyone had similar situations - learning for so many years the
peculiarities of grammar, vocabulary, etc., then discover that the rules
have changed?
Keith
|
Oh, yes. In the 53 years since I graduated from high school, many of the
rules have changed. There have also been changes in spelling of words, and
many, many terms have been added to the average vocabulary. That's why
English (and whatever other language we may speak) is a living language, as
compared to Latin, which is a dead language.
Incidentally, for anyone who is interested in language and its evolution, I
highly recommend the books of Richard Lederer. I have heard him speak a few
times, and have read (and own) several of his books. His web site is at
http://www.verbivore.com/. The name is a clue to his personality. and the
first page will tell you a lot about him.
Joy |
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wordkyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Insure vs Ensure |
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Rules for proper written grammar are pretty much what they were 50
years ago. Although English is a living language -- as is any language
-- what is considered "correct" changes only when enough people will
accept something that is incorrect.
Example: ...."different FROM, not different THAN".....unless you
listen to the zillions of people who say it. And it always makes me
crazy.
Also, does anyone else think "begs the question" means "to make [the
question] unnecessary" (or a related variation) rather than it's
current usage of "raises the question"?
And yes, although I've long known the definitions, I still use "insure"
to mean "money for damage" and "ensure" for "to make sure."
I've become a fuddy-duddy. Heaven help me.....
One point: Isn't the Grammarian's role to enforce (or "inforce") the
standard usage, rather than accept what is considered "incorrect"?
Keith wrote:
| Quote: | A funny thing happened on the way to the toastmasters newsgroup... Just
when I though I had discovered an error on Toastmaster's web site, I find
I'm wrong.
I was reviewing the mission for districts at http://www.toastmasters.org
under the Vision / Mission link. The second point under the mission
statement for districts begins with "Insure" in the context "to make
certain". I looked up insure on www.dictionary.com and, lo and behold, the
2nd definition denotes "to make sure or certain". When I was in school, I
was taught that "ensure" would have been the proper choice for that context.
A few months ago when I was grammarian / ah counter, I dinged someone for
ending a lot of sentences with a preposition. Then I got dinged by the
general evaluator, who said that it's ok to do that now. Others - some
writers - agreed with her. GEE! Why did they change the rules on me after
I graduated high school - and didn't tell me!?! <grin
Has anyone had similar situations - learning for so many years the
peculiarities of grammar, vocabulary, etc., then discover that the rules
have changed?
Keith |
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Joy
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Insure vs Ensure |
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"wordkyle" <wordkyle@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154993638.976166.155300@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Rules for proper written grammar are pretty much what they were 50
years ago. Although English is a living language -- as is any language
-- what is considered "correct" changes only when enough people will
accept something that is incorrect.
Example: ...."different FROM, not different THAN".....unless you
listen to the zillions of people who say it. And it always makes me
crazy.
Also, does anyone else think "begs the question" means "to make [the
question] unnecessary" (or a related variation) rather than it's
current usage of "raises the question"?
And yes, although I've long known the definitions, I still use "insure"
to mean "money for damage" and "ensure" for "to make sure."
I've become a fuddy-duddy. Heaven help me.....
One point: Isn't the Grammarian's role to enforce (or "inforce") the
standard usage, rather than accept what is considered "incorrect"?
Keith wrote:
A funny thing happened on the way to the toastmasters newsgroup... Just
when I though I had discovered an error on Toastmaster's web site, I find
I'm wrong.
I was reviewing the mission for districts at http://www.toastmasters.org
under the Vision / Mission link. The second point under the mission
statement for districts begins with "Insure" in the context "to make
certain". I looked up insure on www.dictionary.com and, lo and behold,
the
2nd definition denotes "to make sure or certain". When I was in school,
I
was taught that "ensure" would have been the proper choice for that
context.
A few months ago when I was grammarian / ah counter, I dinged someone for
ending a lot of sentences with a preposition. Then I got dinged by the
general evaluator, who said that it's ok to do that now. Others - some
writers - agreed with her. GEE! Why did they change the rules on me
after
I graduated high school - and didn't tell me!?! <grin
Has anyone had similar situations - learning for so many years the
peculiarities of grammar, vocabulary, etc., then discover that the rules
have changed?
Keith
|
Some grammatical rules do change, because there was no good reason from them
in the first place. Do you know why you aren't supposed to split an
infinitive? Because in Latin, an infinitive is only one word, and in the
17th century some British Grammarian degreed that an infinitive should never
be split. However, there are times, when a sentence makes much more sense
when the infinitive is split.
And what about the silly rule about ending a sentence with a preposition?
I've heard various sources for this story, but Winston Churchill is most
often credited. When someone chided him for ending a sentence with a
preposition, he responded, "That is the sort of nonsense up with which I
will not put." That sentence clearly demonstrates that sometimes following
that rule makes a sentence awkward.
Joy |
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betsy_in_va
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:13 am Post subject: Re: Insure vs Ensure |
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We once had a big discussion about a speaker who said "how can you tell
if your hot dog really cuts the mustard." Even though it was a pun, the
grammarian pointed out that the phrase should have been "cut the
muster." The speaker protested and found a source that said "cut the
mustard" was an acceptable alternate and had a historical background
having to do with how the early California missions planted mustard to
mark the trails between the missions. |
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Mark Perew
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Insure vs Ensure |
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Keith <pqleer@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Has anyone had similar situations - learning for so many years the
peculiarities of grammar, vocabulary, etc., then discover that the rules
have changed?
|
Prithee gude sirrah! Canst thou shoe unto me the manner of right speech? I
would quit myself like unto that clever Wm Shackespeare with wit and
merriment in my words.
--
Mark Perew <perew@squeep.com>
To the world you may be just one person,
but to one person you may be the world. (Source Unknown) |
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Rod Taylor
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Insure vs Ensure |
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"Keith" <pqleer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:453fd$44d7bfad$d8c35b0a$10997@FUSE.NET...
| Quote: | A funny thing happened on the way to the toastmasters newsgroup...
Just
when I though I had discovered an error on Toastmaster's web site, I
find
I'm wrong.
I was reviewing the mission for districts at
http://www.toastmasters.org
under the Vision / Mission link. The second point under the mission
statement for districts begins with "Insure" in the context "to make
certain". I looked up insure on www.dictionary.com and, lo and
behold, the
2nd definition denotes "to make sure or certain". When I was in
school, I
was taught that "ensure" would have been the proper choice for that
context.
A few months ago when I was grammarian / ah counter, I dinged someone
for
ending a lot of sentences with a preposition. Then I got dinged by
the
general evaluator, who said that it's ok to do that now. Others -
some
writers - agreed with her. GEE! Why did they change the rules on me
after
I graduated high school - and didn't tell me!?! <grin
Has anyone had similar situations - learning for so many years the
peculiarities of grammar, vocabulary, etc., then discover that the
rules
have changed?
|
English is a living and developing language. It changes with users'
needs and also, with ignorance. Dictionaries are descriptive, not
prescriptive. They describe how the population uses words, based on
samples, rather than defining a meaning or usage for a word. Some words
change and refine their meaning with time. By way of examples, the word
'nerd' first appeared in the seventh edition of the Concise Oxford
Dictionary. In every subsequent edition, the meaning has changed
slightly. 'Hopefully' used to mean 'full of hope', but its modern
meaning is 'I hope that' or 'it is to be hoped that'. The newer meaning
now accounts for more than 90% of the citations in the British National
Corpus. Some dictionaries include 'kudo' as a supposed singular of
'kudos'. As in the last example, ignorance and local expanded usage will
get picked up by the lexicographers and may eventually find its way into
the mainstream.
One of the 'problems' is that there are many Englishes around the world,
and they all differ notably. The major groups seem to be British
English, Canadian English, American English, Caribbean English,
Australian English, South African English.
Each of these has its own Corpus and standards for pronunciation,
grammar, spelling, punctuation, and the like. Even within these groups
there may be significant variations. As documents, correspondence, TV
shows, movies, and so on move across international boundaries, different
usage takes root. Even experts disagree on matters such as the use of
the serial comma.
Rod Taylor (rodt iafrica - don't forget the @ and the dotcom)
Transformers Toastmasters Club
District 74, Southern Africa |
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Rod Taylor
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Insure vs Ensure |
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"wordkyle" <wordkyle@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154993638.976166.155300@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Rules for proper written grammar are pretty much what they were 50
years ago. Although English is a living language -- as is any
language
-- what is considered "correct" changes only when enough people will
accept something that is incorrect.
Example: ...."different FROM, not different THAN".....unless you
listen to the zillions of people who say it. And it always makes me
crazy.
|
You can fight a rearguard action or accept that 'different than' has its
place in standard American English and is gaining popularity in British
English. That doesn't mean that 'different from' can be replaced by
'different than' in all cases. On the other hand, 'different to' is
rarely used in American English, yet it is well established elsewhere as
an alternative to 'different from'.
(With tongue firmly in cheek)
Is 'American English' an oxymoron?
Rod Taylor (rodt iafrica - don't forget the @ and the dotcom)
Transformers Toastmasters Club
District 74, Southern Africa |
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Rod Taylor
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Insure vs Ensure |
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"wordkyle" <wordkyle@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154993638.976166.155300@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
A few months ago when I was grammarian / ah counter, I dinged
someone for
ending a lot of sentences with a preposition. Then I got dinged by
the
general evaluator, who said that it's ok to do that now. Others -
some
writers - agreed with her. GEE! Why did they change the rules on
me after
I graduated high school - and didn't tell me!?! <grin
Has anyone had similar situations - learning for so many years the
peculiarities of grammar, vocabulary, etc., then discover that the
rules
have changed?
|
You illustrate a common problem.
As many of you may know, English usage and grammar are complex subjects.
The breadth and depth are too great to be taught in schools, so teachers
try to simplify matters by creating rules rather than by dealing with
the intricacies and complexities of the subject. Even this would not be
too bad if such simplifications were consistent. A typical example is
the 'Oxford' and 'Cambridge' approaches to the serial comma. There are
strong arguments on both sides, but there is no 'right' answer. If you
have been through a school where one approach is taught, the other will
be 'wrong'. As adults, these beliefs remain with us and, unless we are
involved or interested in language usage and development, we never
become aware that there are alternatives or that usage and word meanings
may.change.
The example you give illustrates this well. The General Evaluator
concerned was right in part; traditional rules that decried ending a
sentence with a preposition are now more relaxed. On the other hand,
that doesn't mean that a sentence that ends with a preposition is
acceptable under all circumstances. The same is true of split
infinitives. There are many instances where moving the adverb that
splits the infinitive results in a much more awkward construction.
Equally, there are some split infinitives that really grate on my
English ears and where the adverb could easily, and should, be
relocated..
Toastmasters, through the grammarian's role, helps us to improve our use
of English. On the downside, many grammarians' knowledge of the subject
is mediocre at best. Too often I hear distortions or 'corrections' of
perfectly acceptable usage. Pedantry runs rife! To my way of thinking,
a good grammarian will choose words and phrases representing good usage
and will exemplify these. A good grammarian will also correct errors,
while always being mindful that the language is alive and changing.
Rod Taylor (rodt iafrica - don't forget the @ and the dotcom)
Transformers Toastmasters Club
District 74, Southern Africa |
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Keith
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Insure vs Ensure |
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"Mark Perew" <perew@bokbok.squeep.com> wrote in message
news:eb9rrp$mhu@dispatch.concentric.net...
| Quote: | Keith <pqleer@hotmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone had similar situations - learning for so many years the
peculiarities of grammar, vocabulary, etc., then discover that the rules
have changed?
Prithee gude sirrah! Canst thou shoe unto me the manner of right speech?
I
would quit myself like unto that clever Wm Shackespeare with wit and
merriment in my words.
|
And a welcome change! Thanks for the reminder! LOL |
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Ken Gr
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Insure vs Ensure |
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On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 07:57:26 -0400, Keith wrote:
| Quote: |
"Mark Perew" <perew@bokbok.squeep.com> wrote in message
news:eb9rrp$mhu@dispatch.concentric.net...
Keith <pqleer@hotmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone had similar situations - learning for so many years the
peculiarities of grammar, vocabulary, etc., then discover that the rules
have changed?
Prithee gude sirrah! Canst thou shoe unto me the manner of right speech?
I
would quit myself like unto that clever Wm Shackespeare with wit and
merriment in my words.
And a welcome change! Thanks for the reminder! LOL
|
A) I assured the members that we are insured so as to ensure that we are
financially protected in case of an accident.
B) I insured the members that we are assured so as to ensure that we are
financially protected in case of an accident.
C) I ensured the members that we are assured so as to insure that we are
financially protected in case of an accident.
Only A) sounds right to me !!!!!!! |
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Keith
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:11 am Post subject: Re: Insure vs Ensure |
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"Ken Gr" <kengrNOT@THISwightman.ca> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.08.08.14.39.43.731866@THISwightman.ca...
| Quote: | On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 07:57:26 -0400, Keith wrote:
"Mark Perew" <perew@bokbok.squeep.com> wrote in message
news:eb9rrp$mhu@dispatch.concentric.net...
Keith <pqleer@hotmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone had similar situations - learning for so many years the
peculiarities of grammar, vocabulary, etc., then discover that the
rules
have changed?
Prithee gude sirrah! Canst thou shoe unto me the manner of right
speech?
I
would quit myself like unto that clever Wm Shackespeare with wit and
merriment in my words.
And a welcome change! Thanks for the reminder! LOL
A) I assured the members that we are insured so as to ensure that we are
financially protected in case of an accident.
B) I insured the members that we are assured so as to ensure that we are
financially protected in case of an accident.
C) I ensured the members that we are assured so as to insure that we are
financially protected in case of an accident.
Only A) sounds right to me !!!!!!!
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I like it! :^) |
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David Douthitt
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:40 am Post subject: Re: Insure vs Ensure |
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wordkyle wrote:
| Quote: | Rules for proper written grammar are pretty much what they were 50
years ago. Although English is a living language -- as is any
language -- what is considered "correct" changes only when enough
people will accept something that is incorrect.
|
Bingo! Hit the nail on the head.......
My favorite of this is to ask this question: "What is the difference
between 'regardless' and 'irregardless'?"
The proper answer - according to the dictionary anyway - is: NONE.
The latter is a corruption that was accepted by the lexicographers who
bring us the dictionary....
I would say, just as there is an accepted set of rules for running the
meeting (Roberts Rules) there should be an accepted set of rules for
grammar. To me, there is no better set than Strunk & White.
Hopefully this makes sense  (duck!) |
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